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ichliebekase
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PostSubject: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 7:10 pm

I'm not sure if this would go better in chit chat or critical thinking, so if it needs to be moved it's fine.

I've talked about this subject in chat, but I wanted to see what anyone else thought about the subject.

On Friday evening at approximately 9:45 P.M. EST, my brother's friend Joey D'Entremont was hit by a car on a busy route while he was crossing the street on the crosswalk. At around 11:30 P.M. that night, he was pronounced dead at the hospital.

Ever since the accident, media and policemen have said that it is Joey's fault that he was hit on the road because "he was crossing when the crossing signal was prohibiting pedestrians at the time".

My brother is irate about this statement, because saying that it was the deceased person's fault for getting hit is not only insulting, but absolutely inconsiderate towards the deceased person's family, let alone memory.

In one of the news articles that I have read about the incident, one of them says that the crossing signal that Joey was supposed to be abiding by was broken the day after he died.


Some articles about the incident:
http://www.wbaltv.com/news/25064412/detail.html
http://wjz.com/local/fatal.crash.2.1919972.html (This one says that the crossing signal was broken the next day)
http://wjz.com/local/fatal.crash.2.1922390.html (A follow-up story after students went back to school today)
http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/region/harford_county/14-year-old-pedestrian-killed-while-illegally-crossing-rt.-24- (Has a news report, just click video or the picture of Joey underneath the memorial poster picture)

My question to you all is: Is it correct to say that it is Joey's own fault that he got killed by another driver? Should the driver have any responsibility in this disaster? Should the parents press charges?
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MetalAtlas

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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 8:29 pm

Im sorry for the loss of your friend. Sometimes things like this happen and they suck.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 8:33 pm

Kayla and I are one the same boat when it comes to this, and it's basically summed up in three words:

Yield to pedestrians.

EDIT:
article wrote:
Dylan Myer said his brother was with D'Entremont the night he died.

"They tried to jump the gun. They tried to cross when they shouldn't have crossed," he said. "We all try to jump the gun when we cross the road. Like, 'Oh, let's just go. Cars are going to see me and stop.' That's what I say -- if a car sees me, it'll stop. In this case, it didn't happen."

Well, it's pretty obvious to see that there's definitely fault in the pedestrian. My question regards something else in the article: one of the cars was at a complete stop, and then the other just kept going at full speed? I'd really like to know how far into a blind-spot (if any) these teens were to pretty much be disregarded by the driver.

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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 9:32 pm

So how should you analyze a legal situation? I'm currently taking a business law class and there are several steps we've covered:

1. Get the facts.
2. What is the disputed point?
3. What rule of law is involved?
4. How does this rule apply to the facts?
5. Decision.

Keep in mind I'm going to use what's on these article links you posted, and these articles may be biased and have some things to cover up certain parts of this situation. The mass media has been known to be rather unreliable.

1. Facts:
- Robin Monaco (the 19 year old driving) did not yield to Joey.
- There was a green light, and the crosswalk was prohibiting any pedestrians from crossing at the time, yet Joey decided to cross.
- State police say alcohol was not involved and speed was not a factor in the crash. (However, if the driver KILLED this football player, he must've been going pretty damn fast, around 40 MPH maybe)
- Joey was hit and killed.

2. What is the disputed point?
This one's easy. Who is at fault?

3. What rule of law is involved?
- Yielding (depending on if the state requires it or not)
- Jaywalking

4. How does this rule apply to the facts?
- IF yielding is required by state law, then the driver has just broken a law and is liable for any damages.
- Joey was jaywalking, which is illegal.

5. Decision

This part also requires ethics. Ethics in our class is defined as "deciding what is right or wrong in a reasoned, impartial manner."
- The decision made must affect you or others in some significant way.
- Decision must be based on reason, not emotions.
- Decision is impartial. That is, the same ethical standards are applied to everyone and does not value any one person or group over another person or group of people. Instead, you see the people as individuals and treat them with equal respect.

Let's see the decisions made here according to the facts.
- Robin Monaco did not yield.
- Joey decided to cross traffic when there was a green light.

Was there a stop sign? If so, Robin is required to stop and yield. If he didn't stop however, then the intersection must not have had any stop signs. Of course, not yielding to pedestrians is wrong since the driver should be aware at all times and be concerned about the safety of others. Usually if something like this happens, the driver is in a rush or just impatient.

Joey decided to jaywalk. This is illegal, and unethical at the same time. You're not giving the driver any warning whatsoever and you're disrupting traffic.

So who's at fault here? While Joey did decide to jaywalk, Robin is responsible to yield to pedestrians which he failed to do, but the state might not require yielding. This is a very important point here, because if the state statute DOES require drivers to yield to pedestrians, Robin has just broken a law and is liable for damages. Jaywalking is also illegal, however.

If you look at it that way, both people are at fault. If yielding was not implemented at the time, Robin hasn't broken any laws but he did make an unethical decision.

Now on to what the articles said:
- "The crosswalk was prohibiting any pedestrians from crossing at the time of this incident because north and southbound traffic had a steady green light," said a police official.
- The driver remained at the scene and has not been charged, according to officials.

^ From that, it's clear that yielding was not implemented at this time and so Robin is not found liable for damages. The articles still say that police are investigating but he's most likely going to get away with this one. When decisions are being made for charges, emotional factors are not involved.

I'd like to end this saying that I really do feel sorry that this happened. Drivers should ALWAYS yield to pedestrians, especially on crosswalks (highways are a different story though, you don't cross those lmao), even if there's no state law requiring it, it's ethical and is common sense. If you don't yield, you're obviously rushing or just impatient as fuck and you should be ashamed of yourself for just blasting through.
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ichliebekase
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 9:35 pm

On this road, there are 4 lanes. One to turn left, two to go straight, and one to turn right. The person/people to turn left were stopped (left turn lane has a red light, it's separate from the other light) and the person who hit Joey was in the left-straight lane, coming at approximately 40 MPH (btw, this isn't speeding on this road, the speed limit is either 40 or 45). They're not small lanes either. Unless this was a semi in the left turn lane, the car that hit him should have seen Joey, because he wouldn't be so stupid as to say "HEY THERE'S A CAR RIGHT HERE, LET'S JUMP RIGHT IN FRONT OF IT". Either that, or the car was going faster than reported, then that would be a serious crime.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 9:41 pm

True. Like I stated, these articles may not be all that reliable. They may be covering up certain things. To actually kill someone with a car crash you'd have to be going pretty damn fast.

The articles said that police are still investigating, but I doubt anything significant is going to come up. Something would have had to be distracting or blocking the driver to not see him crossing.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 9:45 pm

Dossar, you made a lot of very good points. I'm not sure how exactly to respond to it, but everything you said makes sense and isn't said in a dick way like the media did it.

One other thing that I thought of after I posted this. If Robin (the driver) was going at a reasonable speed, then why did Joey end up on the corner that he was running to?

This is a bad drawing of the road in question:


Mind, this isn't a small intersection. It's extremely dangerous and it takes a good while to cross these roads. I've done it a bunch of times myself.

The purple X is where Joey was hit. The red X is where Joey landed. The arrow is the direction and lane that the car was driving. The blue blob is where the car was trying to turn in the left turn lane, apparently where Joey was where the driver couldn't see him.

I'm not excellent on physics, but is this a bit ridiculous how far Joey flew?

EDIT: Wait, I think I did it wrong. He ended up on the corner above the one I drew that he landed at. So new drawing coming.


Last edited by ichliebekase on September 20th 2010, 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dossar
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 9:49 pm

I don't know much about physics either but that does seem pretty ridiculous :V

The driver would definitely have to be going at a pretty fast speed to fling Joey that far.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 10:00 pm

well, now ill interject. At that angle, the driver would have had 0 time to react. The driver's responsibility is to look at whats in front of him not whats coming from the side. He had tha right of way so there reallys is no reason to look left or right, just striaght. Seeing as there was a car at the left turn signal, he wouldnt have seen joey until he was right in front of him, which physics dictate that even if he slams the breaks he still would have skidded and hit him. If he was further away, joey would have had enough time to cross the road.
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ichliebekase
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 10:03 pm

But thing is, Joey wasn't a fucking moron. He would have seen the car coming if the car was only 50 feet away from him. He went to go, the car must have been going faster than Joey thought, and the driver didn't react in time to stop at all, otherwise he would not have LITERALLY FLOWN like his friend said he did. Joey didn't skid onto that spot, which is grass. He flew, from the spot he got hit at, to where he landed.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 10:14 pm

its also possible that he ddnt see the car. 40 mph is still fast. its a possibility.
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ichliebekase
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 10:19 pm

It would be almost impossible not to see the car, ESPECIALLY since his friends said "DON'T GO THERE'S A CAR!" (Just so you know, I'm not yelling at you XD) I used to live right by this road, I walked there every day for a few summers because that's where the McDonalds, Rita's, a bunch of other "hangouts" were. It's a very open "highway" so-to-say. It'd be fairly hard to not see a car coming, especially at night and headlights are easily seen at night.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 10:24 pm

so if his friends told him there was a car and to not go why did he go then? (and im not yelling either, and im really trying to not be an ass. Im really sorry that this happened its just really shitty)
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ichliebekase
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 10:29 pm

He's a football player, so he thought that he could outrun the car? That part I don't really know too much about. The information I know is a combination of the news, and what my mother has told me. I'll let my brother talk to me when he feels comfortable.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 10:31 pm

its just probably 2 cases of not paying attention to your surroundings
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ichliebekase
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 10:35 pm

Highly likely.

But who would be mainly at fault? And would it be right to press charges on the driver?
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 20th 2010, 11:19 pm

No. I bet he feels like shit too. Even if he did absolutely nothing wrong, He's gotta be shaken up after realizing that he inadvertantly killed someone. That's hard to live with it anyway you look at it. He's been thorugh enough already.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 3:11 am

As far as I'm concerned with all the evidence, its really both of their faults. The driver wasnt paying attention, but Joey put himself in a highly dangerous predicament with almost no concern over his safety, especially when the phrase "Don't go there's a car" is being said. As far as the media is concerned, they're always buffering things up to give the story a better angle and such. I don't think it was bad this time around, but the article titles (like the illegally crossing one) are a little much, especially considering the accident was still under investigation.

In response to your most recent question Sara, I believe charges can and will be pressed on the driver. Is this a case of murder? Technically no. Vehicular Homicide? Possibly, but not likely either, especially if tapes can prove he wasnt speeding and that he was not legally obliged to yield (or if he just didnt have enough time to react). In this incident he should be charged with manslaughter, which will still give him some prison time.

In any case, sorry for the loss. News like this sucks, regardless of how well the person is known to you or how close you were.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 3:41 am

im gonna repeat myself: "He's been through enough already." The papers said the kid who was driving was 19. meaning, if hes like the rest of us, he is feeling pretty shitty already. Is the unneccesary jail time going to change anything? The answer is no. He has to live with this all his life already.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 3:50 am

I'm not saying he hasn't been through enough yet. I said that's the charge he's most likely going to get.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 7:27 am

i gotta say something here too. the driver isn't supposed to only be concerned with what's in front of him, as a driver you need to be aware of whats going on around you. hence mirrors on cars.

and the driver will probably get something like reckless driving. maybe some points on his license or a few months suspension, but that seems a little drastic to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 9:16 am

kmay wrote:
i gotta say something here too. the driver isn't supposed to only be concerned with what's in front of him, as a driver you need to be aware of whats going on around you. hence mirrors on cars.

^

And yielding to pedestrians in Maryland is a law, no matter what the pedestrian is doing.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 11:10 am

kmay wrote:
i gotta say something here too. the driver isn't supposed to only be concerned with what's in front of him, as a driver you need to be aware of whats going on around you. hence mirrors on cars.

and the driver will probably get something like reckless driving. maybe some points on his license or a few months suspension, but that seems a little drastic to me.

if it's a law in Maryland to yield to pedestrians, regardless of the situation, a few points on the license/suspension is not nearly enough. He will more than likely get charged with vehicular manslaughter.

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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 2:50 pm

o lol didnt know that jersey has no driving laws >Smile we are assholes on the road
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 6:07 pm

kmay wrote:
we are assholes on the road

I know -_- XD ;)
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 6:25 pm

kmay wrote:
o lol didnt know that jersey has no driving laws >Smile we are assholes on the road

It's the law in Jersey to yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk

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ichliebekase
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 21st 2010, 6:30 pm

And Jersey does have laws, a lot of them. Now it's a law to wear your seatbelt in the back seat =.= Frankie and I got warnings for that shit.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 22nd 2010, 12:25 am

Honestly as much as the driver has his faults in this, kinda lays more on the pedestrian on this one.

1. crossing when not supposed to
2. you said it was a busy road so crossing when you are not supposed to is a risk right there
3. Its 9:45 at night, its dark out
4. The drivers have a green light
5. Being that it is dark out makes it hard for the driver to see a walking pedestrian
6. He was standing in front of a car in the turn lane before crossing, another thing making it harder for the driver to see him
7. Assuming the driver is going at a decent speed, if he did see him, prob wouldnt have been near till the last minute, by then even slamming on the brakes would have not done to much to prevent this.
8. I would assume that he really didnt look before crossing to well/didnt time before he walked/was stunned when he saw the car when walking into the road could be a factor

These are just all my sides one why im more on why it is the pedestrians fault in this case. This stuff sucks, I know. 2 people within the last year or so have died right down the road from me from trying to cross a busy highway when it is dark and such. The driver and pedestrian in a case like this both play a part in preventing this from happening, but the pedestrian could use some smarts and not cross when they know it isnt a safe time to cross.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 22nd 2010, 12:49 am

Valid points. But when the law says to yield to pedestrians, it doesn't matter if the pedestrian is doing something stupid or not. I expect that the driver will get charged with something, probably vehicular manslaughter or something like that. But that's only if the parents are smart enough to read into the laws and talk to good lawyers. They will mourn for a little while then business does need to be taken care of. The funeral was tonight, the viewing is tomorrow (I don't think this is normal order of chain-of-events, but I think that's how they're doing it in this case). I just wish I was there for my brother...
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 22nd 2010, 1:10 am

As much as that law is true, its not like this driver hit the kid intentionally. The kid was hit most likely without driver and pedestrian even knowing it was about to happen. It was not a hit and run, the driver stayed at the scene. When you are flying down the highway and cant see a person crossing up ahead because it is dark, it is kind of hard to yield to what you cant see is there. By time he saw him it was going to be too late. =\ Just a wrong place wrong time situation I guess. Not much more to say.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 22nd 2010, 1:39 am

^ I stand by my statement. I t all just sucks. We'll have to mourn for the loss and just move on.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 22nd 2010, 11:59 am

It's not like this accident occurred in the middle of nowhere >.> this area is full of shopping centers with street lights and stop lights everywhere. It'd be kind of hard to miss a car coming (fault of the pedestrian). Not all the facts are in the news reports as well, including how long it was from pedestrian coming into view to contact with the car. If the pedestrian walked out into the lane when the car was 100 yards away, then the driver should have seen the pedestrian and had a better reaction time. If the car was only 100 feet away, then the pedestrian would be at fault for being stupid and trying to beat a 40+MPH car coming towards him.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 22nd 2010, 1:53 pm

ok you try seeing a person standing in front of a car 100 yards away at night and tell me how that goes, not that easy to see someone at night especially when he is off to the side of the road standing in front of another vehicle. Obviously if he saw the kid from a far distance the kid would still be alive today since the driver would have seen and avoided him.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 22nd 2010, 2:54 pm

ichliebekase wrote:
It's not like this accident occurred in the middle of nowhere >.> this area is full of shopping centers with street lights and stop lights everywhere.

This. It's a very well lit area at night.
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PostSubject: Re: Accusations of the Media   September 23rd 2010, 2:32 am

nice ban
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