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Disease
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ichliebekase
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 4:31 pm

Plan_B wrote:
Oh I know its an addiction, it common sense, but I dont want to be sucked into this BS fighting because two little pricks want to be right and defend something that obviously isnt true.


Dude, don't be an ass. If someone is going to tell me that isn't being rude or anything of the sort, then I don't know what rudeness is. Also, two little pricks? I changed my opinion, so I know you're not talking about me.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 4:37 pm

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Mental disease known as alcoholism? IT'S NOT A MENTAL DISEASE. Uncontrollable binge drinking happens because people don't have the will power to STOP. If at ANY point in time, they know that it's bad and that it's wrong, it's not a disease. The physical action of drinking alcohol to stop any mental anguish is done out of their OWN volition. A disease is forced, and uncontrollable.

dude, how do you think they have those uncontrollable binge drinking times? Everything we do is incorporated with our mind. Every addiction, every movement, every time we eat or drink, it's all caused by the brain. Drinking is the same. Most alcoholics drink for one reason or another. Whether it's just pure enjoyment, or for depression, or what not. There is no way you can sit there and say there it's not mental. What about smoking? That is all mental. Period. Otherwise, kayla and I would be able to quit. It's the constant hand to mouth that is addictive and inhaling. Don't tell me it's not. You're not, or as I know, have never been a drug addict or alcoholic. I used to be a drug addict. Smoking pot, snorting cocaine, shooting up heroine. I KNOW what it does to your mind. Why do you think I've basically forgotten high school subjects and shit people tell me from time to time? It's because of drugs. Because of the addiction to it. It's all fucking mental. Don't say it isn't. My brother and I are living proof of it.

Quote :
How can you assume -anything- about my parents? The fact that you have to use your parents to validate your point without concrete facts means nothing. How do you know that my parents haven't been drinking as long if not longer than you?


My apologies, sir, I did not mean to make it seem like I was assuming anything of your parents. But, I do know, that my grandfather drank for 63 years. He was constantly drinking as a kid and died with a scotch glass in his hand. If you think I'm kidding, you're nuts. I saw his dead body with the glass laying in his hand on the bed with scotch in it. I know nothing of your parents or what their reason is for drinking. But, for the most part, and I hope you agree, most people drink based upon either depression or "bad habit."


Quote :
And I'll just say what I did earlier, the fact that the person let themselves get far enough into the state where they are able to break the bonds of alcohol means that there was no attempt to quit. If we're considering the uncontrollable urge to consume something, then we're going to need a whole new repertoire of names to come with for all of the drugs used in things most adults use on a regular basis.

There is nothing in alcohol that FORCES you to keep drinking other than the own problems a person has in their life. If a person is dealing with stress, they'll turn to relief.

This is one point, not everything. Not everyone drinks for depression. Some drink because it's what they have been used to doing for so long. Again, my grandfather. Drank simple and solely because he loved scotch. No matter how hammered he got, he drank for that reason. As for my father, he drank out of depression of my mother dying 17 1/2 years ago, and for his parents dying within 6 months of each other. Yes, it is over depression. But he doesn't want to keep drinking. It's a force of habit, UNDER THE MENTAL BRAIN, that he goes to drinking the minute he gets depressed again. It's the only way HE KNOWS how to deal with it. So, how does he go to drinking? He uses his BRAIN. The brain is what functions us the most. Without it, we won't survive. We know that. Anything and everything we say and or think and or do is controlled by the brain. How is drinking not mental? Please, provide me with something to say it's not.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 4:38 pm

And again, AJ, it is opinionated. There isn't anything you say or anyone else that will change my outlook on it. In todays society they put a name on everything and call it a disease you know that. It's only a matter of time before they say it actually is IN FACT a disease.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 4:49 pm

Frankie wrote:

dude, how do you think they have those uncontrollable binge drinking times? Everything we do is incorporated with our mind. Every addiction, every movement, every time we eat or drink, it's all caused by the brain. Drinking is the same. Most alcoholics drink for one reason or another. Whether it's just pure enjoyment, or for depression, or what not. There is no way you can sit there and say there it's not mental. What about smoking? That is all mental. Period. Otherwise, kayla and I would be able to quit. It's the constant hand to mouth that is addictive and inhaling. Don't tell me it's not. You're not, or as I know, have never been a drug addict or alcoholic. I used to be a drug addict. Smoking pot, snorting cocaine, shooting up heroine. I KNOW what it does to your mind. Why do you think I've basically forgotten high school subjects and shit people tell me from time to time? It's because of drugs. Because of the addiction to it. It's all fucking mental. Don't say it isn't. My brother and I are living proof of it.

So just because something is mental it's a disease? So everything we do is a disease then, breathing, eating, walking, etc. Smoking yes there's receptors in our brains that the nicotine sticks to which causes an addiction it's not a disease of the brain an addiction itself isn't killing you it's what you're doing and addictions can be broken without any treatment. My dad was a smoker for over 20 years quit cold turkey with no assistance of anything. I know people who were alcoholics that quit on their own and never went back. It's you yourself that make the decisions. Unless you are going crazy you have control over your mind it's just a matter of whether or not you truly want to do it. Do I want to quit smoking because of the health problems it can cause yea but do I REALLY want to quit smoking no somewhere in the back of my mind it takes away that enjoyment that one feels (addiction). And also going through the withdrawl sucks which is why most people stick with their addictions because they don't want to deal with the withdrawl effects. Not a disease just people not doing the right things because they don't really want to

Quote :

My apologies, sir, I did not mean to make it seem like I was assuming anything of your parents. But, I do know, that my grandfather drank for 63 years. He was constantly drinking as a kid and died with a scotch glass in his hand. If you think I'm kidding, you're nuts. I saw his dead body with the glass laying in his hand on the bed with scotch in it. I know nothing of your parents or what their reason is for drinking. But, for the most part, and I hope you agree, most people drink based upon either depression or "bad habit."

exactly based upon something else so alcoholism isn't a disease itself but rather other diseases cause it. It is a symptom of a disease if anything.

Quote :

This is one point, not everything. Not everyone drinks for depression. Some drink because it's what they have been used to doing for so long. Again, my grandfather. Drank simple and solely because he loved scotch. No matter how hammered he got, he drank for that reason. As for my father, he drank out of depression of my mother dying 17 1/2 years ago, and for his parents dying within 6 months of each other. Yes, it is over depression. But he doesn't want to keep drinking. It's a force of habit, UNDER THE MENTAL BRAIN, that he goes to drinking the minute he gets depressed again. It's the only way HE KNOWS how to deal with it. So, how does he go to drinking? He uses his BRAIN. The brain is what functions us the most. Without it, we won't survive. We know that. Anything and everything we say and or think and or do is controlled by the brain. How is drinking not mental? Please, provide me with something to say it's not.


Again being used to doesn't make it a disease just a habit. Everything you have posted in this most current post just sways more to it not being a disease. Read everything you said in here "out of depression" "because he was used to it" He uses his brain okay and? We use our brains for everyday things just as you said so if you are using that as an argument EVERYTHING we do is because of a disease because it's through our brain that we do it.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 4:55 pm

Frankie wrote:
Quote :
Mental disease known as alcoholism? IT'S NOT A MENTAL DISEASE. Uncontrollable binge drinking happens because people don't have the will power to STOP. If at ANY point in time, they know that it's bad and that it's wrong, it's not a disease. The physical action of drinking alcohol to stop any mental anguish is done out of their OWN volition. A disease is forced, and uncontrollable.

dude, how do you think they have those uncontrollable binge drinking times? Everything we do is incorporated with our mind. Every addiction, every movement, every time we eat or drink, it's all caused by the brain. Drinking is the same. Most alcoholics drink for one reason or another. Whether it's just pure enjoyment, or for depression, or what not. There is no way you can sit there and say there it's not mental. What about smoking? That is all mental. Period. Otherwise, kayla and I would be able to quit. It's the constant hand to mouth that is addictive and inhaling. Don't tell me it's not. You're not, or as I know, have never been a drug addict or alcoholic. I used to be a drug addict. Smoking pot, snorting cocaine, shooting up heroine. I KNOW what it does to your mind. Why do you think I've basically forgotten high school subjects and shit people tell me from time to time? It's because of drugs. Because of the addiction to it. It's all fucking mental. Don't say it isn't. My brother and I are living proof of it.

Quote :
How can you assume -anything- about my parents? The fact that you have to use your parents to validate your point without concrete facts means nothing. How do you know that my parents haven't been drinking as long if not longer than you?


My apologies, sir, I did not mean to make it seem like I was assuming anything of your parents. But, I do know, that my grandfather drank for 63 years. He was constantly drinking as a kid and died with a scotch glass in his hand. If you think I'm kidding, you're nuts. I saw his dead body with the glass laying in his hand on the bed with scotch in it. I know nothing of your parents or what their reason is for drinking. But, for the most part, and I hope you agree, most people drink based upon either depression or "bad habit."


Quote :
And I'll just say what I did earlier, the fact that the person let themselves get far enough into the state where they are able to break the bonds of alcohol means that there was no attempt to quit. If we're considering the uncontrollable urge to consume something, then we're going to need a whole new repertoire of names to come with for all of the drugs used in things most adults use on a regular basis.

There is nothing in alcohol that FORCES you to keep drinking other than the own problems a person has in their life. If a person is dealing with stress, they'll turn to relief.

This is one point, not everything. Not everyone drinks for depression. Some drink because it's what they have been used to doing for so long. Again, my grandfather. Drank simple and solely because he loved scotch. No matter how hammered he got, he drank for that reason. As for my father, he drank out of depression of my mother dying 17 1/2 years ago, and for his parents dying within 6 months of each other. Yes, it is over depression. But he doesn't want to keep drinking. It's a force of habit, UNDER THE MENTAL BRAIN, that he goes to drinking the minute he gets depressed again. It's the only way HE KNOWS how to deal with it. So, how does he go to drinking? He uses his BRAIN. The brain is what functions us the most. Without it, we won't survive. We know that. Anything and everything we say and or think and or do is controlled by the brain. How is drinking not mental? Please, provide me with something to say it's not.


Your post just confirmed what he was saying. It's all mental. It's by choice. It's by force of the person. The person is forcing themselves to drink. How can it be a disease if a person gives up or doesn't have the will do to stop? Giving up to the feel of it is not a disease. It's an addiction because it can be helped way more than any other problem.

Smoking: Person continues to smoke knowing that it has nicotine, knowing that it causes cancer, etc.

Heroine: Stimulates the brain as they know, so they continue to have that feeling.

Anti-depressants: No will, and must use them as a crutch. (Not all cases, I know)

Alcohol: Crutch, stimulate, relaxation, liking, want, etc.

Heart Disease: Genetic, growing problem within, can be contributed by human but it can still occur without help.

Leukemia: Genetic, no contribution by human, potent, small cure but not always successful.

Cerebral palsy: Genetic, no contributions needed, etc.


There's a pattern in there.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:02 pm

~Z~ wrote:
Cerebral palsy: Genetic, no contributions needed, etc.


Can be caused by medical malpractice.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:04 pm

You guys really aren't getting what I'm saying. It's kind of frustrating.

Okay, so, alcoholism is an addiction rather than a disease. Okay, I agree with it being an addiction. That is by far one fact. Lets look at two very important factors with diseases:

1. Chronic
2. Progressive

Diabetes, Cancer, Leukemia, etc. They all have those two very important factors. Doctors say very importantly that if something is chronic and progressive it is a disease. Those are just two factors. Alcoholism has those two as well... So we'll just write it off as it isn't a disease because we just relate it to be an addiction or what not? The fact of the matter is that no matter what WE say, none of us are alcoholics. Yes we see it as an outside view, but what about those that are? What about those people who want to stop but can't? And you can say "oh get over it you can," when in reality its just not that easy.

Being a smoker, I can't quit. I have tried. It doesn't work out for me. Being a drug addict for over 10 years didn't help either. I couldn't quit. Want to know how I quit drugs? Rehab. Treatments. Walking around like a zombie for over a year. That's how I quit being a full fledged drug addict. 17/18 years old I had to go to rehab on and off. It was a mental disease I had that was shutting my body down because I was going through withdrawal.

Again, it is opinionated. I don't see what you guys don't get? You can create a poll and everyone on there can click no or yes, it isn't gonna matter to me. I've already asked about five other people who agree with me, including my father who IS an alcoholic and a friend I've known for over 20 years who isn't, along with more... Still, it doesn't matter.

The theory of alcoholism has been going on since the late eighteenth century. Were not going to cover any new ground here discussing what you feel or what I feel about it. It has not been OFFICIALLY stated it is or isn't a disease. If you guys, just as I am, are so hell bent on it being a disease or not, discussing it here doesn't make a difference. What matters is what scientists and doctors conclude over hundreds of years or research. Nothing we say now is any different than those who said the same thing over the many many years.

So, I will say this, I won't fight about it any more, I won't specify why I believe it to be a disease or what not. I will only say it is my god given right to have my opinion, and it is what it is.



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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:05 pm

ichliebekase wrote:
~Z~ wrote:
Cerebral palsy: Genetic, no contributions needed, etc.


Can be caused by medical malpractice.

That really has nothing to do with his point though. Medical malpractice is something completely different from substance abuse or a mental disease. That's just a mistake made by a doctor.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:07 pm

Quote :
Your post just confirmed what he was saying. It's all mental. It's by choice. It's by force of the person. The person is forcing themselves to drink. How can it be a disease if a person gives up or doesn't have the will do to stop? Giving up to the feel of it is not a disease. It's an addiction because it can be helped way more than any other problem.

Smoking: Person continues to smoke knowing that it has nicotine, knowing that it causes cancer, etc.

Heroine: Stimulates the brain as they know, so they continue to have that feeling.

Anti-depressants: No will, and must use them as a crutch. (Not all cases, I know)

Alcohol: Crutch, stimulate, relaxation, liking, want, etc.

Heart Disease: Genetic, growing problem within, can be contributed by human but it can still occur without help.

Leukemia: Genetic, no contribution by human, potent, small cure but not always successful.

Cerebral palsy: Genetic, no contributions needed, etc.


There's a pattern in there.

Dude, is anyone paying attention? I said somewhere back in one of my posts that it was a Mental Disease ................. here i found it


kmay wrote:
alcoholism is an addiction. not a disease. it is a disease in a sense that when drunk you are impaired, but it isnt a sickness.

and no its not genetic at all. omg my dad drinks a lot that means i will to. wrong. its just that the kid sees it as normal or not a big deal there for does is themselves. its not in DNA or any other genetic material. people just like to make up theories for peoples problems. im so sick of this stupid argument i hear it all the time

Quote :
You sir are very rude. This is a critcal thinking thread to where people have their own opinions and statements without being houded about something someone else thinks is wrong. Just calm down and state your opinion without being disrespectful.

Now, is it genetic? For many many years doctors, scientists, and others have researched this theory to see if it is correct. They have proven, over the last 25 years, that out of all of their patients, 75% of them have proved the theory of Alcoholism being allowed to be genetically passed down. So far, it really depends on the severity of how much someone's parents have drank over the 9 months they were in the womb. As of right now they have NOT come to a conclusion about that particular subject, but they just about concluded it can be genetic.

As for Alcoholism NOT being a disease, lets take a look at the definition of what a disease is:

1 : obsolete : trouble
2 : a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms : sickness, malady
3 : a harmful development (as in a social institution)

I have bolded the definition I am talking about. "A condition of the living animal or plant body or one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms." How do you say Alcoholism doesn't fall under this category? If you go to merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disease there is a column that shows examples: a disease of the mind. Alcoholism is a disease of the mind, BY FAR.

Now, to furthermore support the fact that Alcoholism is a disease, let me bring up the topic of my father. A couple months ago I had to go down to where he lived to fill out paper work for his advisor considering I am Power of Attorney over him, and he is currently on Disability. Now, as I filled out the paperwork it very clearly described his condition. He was sent to 5, count it, one, two, three, four, FIVE, different doctors to verify the condition. The condition states : The patient named, ???, is currently accepted for disablity under the states declaration of patient named, ??? is suffering from listed diseases including: Mental Illness, Mental Affiliated Illness, Heart Conditions ranging from and not limiting Heart Palpatations and murmurs, Alcoholism. Now his agent who Sara met last year, flat out explained to me what the diseases were. She was gracious enough to fill me in on the subject that Alcoholism is IN FACT a disease of the mind. It is an addiction that he built up to drown his sorrows and worries away. From that addiction, he suffered liver problems and now has white spots all over his liver. I found this out a couple months ago as well.

I agree with Kellen that it is, definitely an addiction, but just like any drug; Marijuana, Cocaine, Heroine, PCP, LSD, etc. etc., they all have the same outcome if used in excess or over a period of time, which is, regretably, death.

So, just to clarify, it IS a disease.


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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:08 pm

Lol, what happened here? o_o

Earlier I said 'a broken arm' is an injury, and that whether or not that could be called a disease would be an issue of semantics. Actually, I don't think it would be called a disease, for, regardless of the definition any particular dictionary might give the word, there's generally not going to be a practical purpose for such a distinction. Well, the debate on whether addictions is also a matter of semantics, but in this case I believe it's a truism: With a strict definition as "a physiologically fueled compulsion to repeat a self-harming action", addictions are diseases. Again, they're long-term, acquired illnesses: adaptations of the nervous system that affect our actions (or, a little less correct, but more to the point, that affects the "choices" we make).

Yes, as humans we can always kind of choose to ignore what our bodies want via neocortical override, but I've got news for you guys: most of the decisions we make are subconscious. (Do we choose to overeat?) In order for addicts to "cure themselves" of an addiction, they need to be convinced that they have to stop; convinced enough that they will be able to override their lower-level decisions for a prolonged period (IE every time they get an urge, they'll consciously decide not to follow it). Over time, the highly adaptive nervous system returns to its decidedly neutral state, so making the right decision becomes easier.

No one here is trying to defend addicts. >_> It's a debate. On semantics. And I, for one, am not saying 'drinking' or 'smoking' are diseases. Addictions fall under that category.

Anyway, on to another point... who says illnesses have to be inherited to be labeled as diseases?

One example of disease that isn't normally recognized as a disease is the constantly accumulating illness that is aging. A few of the problems our bodies gather over time (that can literally be classified as "aging") are mitochondrial mutations (as a result of an ongoing process of natural selection within our cells), lysosomal dysfunction (failure of our cellular recycling system caused either by slowly occurring mutations or by over-toxification), and death-resistant cells (cancer: mainly caused by chemically altered suicide genes [IE mutations]). All of these things happen to people as time passes, and some of them are caused by genetic mutations, but for the most part, we don't inherit them. They are inevitable.

Atherosclerosis, or heart disease, is acquired, and is almost inescapable. Generally, LDL, low-density lipoproteins, are chemically altered by a number of -very common- substances going through the bloodstream, like exposure to free radicals, which are inevitable byproducts of oxidative phosphorization, and glycation, a reaction with blood sugars, which are necessary raw materials for some of the most fundamental metabolic processes in our cells. The altered LDL sticks together, becomes trapped between blood vessel walls, and the body reacts via inflammation of those blood vessels so that macrophages come and try to gulp up the garbage in those blood vessels. The lysosomes of those macrophages can't keep up with all the garbage, the macrophages die and contribute to the foamy mess gathering in said blood vessel, and this continues happening until the site becomes scabbed over and eventually ruptures into chunks that travel into smaller vessels, blocking off the flow of blood, and ultimately leading to a heart attack or a stroke. LDL is a transporter unit for cholesterol, which is also a requirement for your cells, and cutting down on it will only reduce the likelihood of all of the above occurring. It will happen to everyone eventually, without interventions that have not yet been developed, regardless of genetic predisposition to the illness.

So no, diseases don't have to be inherited. (Sorry for the rant; that was more like a self-serving review than a rebuttal. o_o;)


TO SUM IT ALL UP:

- compulsion severe enough to be medically termed "addiction" is neurological disease
-> the word 'neurological' is associated with afflictions of the nervous system
--> the center of the nervous system is the brain
---> the brain is loosely associated with the "mind", which refers to qualia, from "conscious thought"
----> conscious thought is how people (duh) make conscious decisions (i.e. override instinctive reactions), hence the term we see in this thread, "disease of the mind"

- most diseases people get are not inherited


Last edited by Lorika on August 27th 2010, 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:10 pm

Saphira wrote:
That really has nothing to do with his point though. Medical malpractice is something completely different from substance abuse or a mental disease. That's just a mistake made by a doctor.


I was just saying :P
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:10 pm

Quote :
So just because something is mental it's a disease? So everything we do is a disease then, breathing, eating, walking, etc. Smoking yes there's receptors in our brains that the nicotine sticks to which causes an addiction it's not a disease of the brain an addiction itself isn't killing you it's what you're doing and addictions can be broken without any treatment. My dad was a smoker for over 20 years quit cold turkey with no assistance of anything. I know people who were alcoholics that quit on their own and never went back. It's you yourself that make the decisions. Unless you are going crazy you have control over your mind it's just a matter of whether or not you truly want to do it. Do I want to quit smoking because of the health problems it can cause yea but do I REALLY want to quit smoking no somewhere in the back of my mind it takes away that enjoyment that one feels (addiction). And also going through the withdrawl sucks which is why most people stick with their addictions because they don't want to deal with the withdrawl effects. Not a disease just people not doing the right things because they don't really want to


Not everything mental is a disease, but something that we do mentally that is affecting our everyday life and functionality over and excessive period of time? yes it is a disease. Flat out.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:11 pm

Frankie wrote:
dude, how do you think they have those uncontrollable binge drinking times? Everything we do is incorporated with our mind. Every addiction, every movement, every time we eat or drink, it's all caused by the brain. Drinking is the same. Most alcoholics drink for one reason or another. Whether it's just pure enjoyment, or for depression, or what not. There is no way you can sit there and say there it's not mental. What about smoking? That is all mental. Period. Otherwise, kayla and I would be able to quit. It's the constant hand to mouth that is addictive and inhaling. Don't tell me it's not. You're not, or as I know, have never been a drug addict or alcoholic. I used to be a drug addict. Smoking pot, snorting cocaine, shooting up heroine. I KNOW what it does to your mind. Why do you think I've basically forgotten high school subjects and shit people tell me from time to time? It's because of drugs. Because of the addiction to it. It's all fucking mental. Don't say it isn't. My brother and I are living proof of it.

Your brain tells you to do it, but that doesn't fully commit you to the action. You have to physically get up, go to wherever it is you need to, get whatever source of alcohol or whatever it is, and then commit to the action. That's PLENTY of time to think within yourself why NOT to do it. Just like smoking - if you have the willpower to know that it isn't right, and you have enough of it, your willpower will kill off the addiction. This is how most people are able to go cold turkey, they push through the anger, the cravings, the challenge of depriving your body of the needed drugs or content that it so desperately wants. Second-hand smoking for who the fuck knows how long, and I still don't get overcome by the urge to smoke anything. I'm inhaling the smoke and nicotine on a daily basis, yet when my mood shifts or my body feels deprived of something that it wants/needs, you know what I do? I deal with it and move on. Yes, your mood changes - you get irritable, you go through spurts of enhanced feelings. DEAL WITH IT. The fact that you know you are doing it, means that it's within your control. Don't say that it's not, because the moment go through an addiction, there's the physical willpower that you can apply to break it.

Quote :


My apologies, sir, I did not mean to make it seem like I was assuming anything of your parents. But, I do know, that my grandfather drank for 63 years. He was constantly drinking as a kid and died with a scotch glass in his hand. If you think I'm kidding, you're nuts. I saw his dead body with the glass laying in his hand on the bed with scotch in it. I know nothing of your parents or what their reason is for drinking. But, for the most part, and I hope you agree, most people drink based upon either depression or "bad habit."

People drinking based on depression or bad habit also are aware that they are drinking alcohol to suppress those feelings. This, and the feeling of it, is what makes people come back for it again and again; when consuming heavy amounts of alcohol, they don't hear the terrible thoughts of their lives/depressions screaming in their brain, they have a high. Again, it's similar to drug usage, and other sorts of inhibitors; you don't HAVE to suppress yourself in that manner.

Quote :

This is one point, not everything. Not everyone drinks for depression. Some drink because it's what they have been used to doing for so long. Again, my grandfather. Drank simple and solely because he loved scotch. No matter how hammered he got, he drank for that reason. As for my father, he drank out of depression of my mother dying 17 1/2 years ago, and for his parents dying within 6 months of each other. Yes, it is over depression. But he doesn't want to keep drinking. It's a force of habit, UNDER THE MENTAL BRAIN, that he goes to drinking the minute he gets depressed again. It's the only way HE KNOWS how to deal with it. So, how does he go to drinking? He uses his BRAIN. The brain is what functions us the most. Without it, we won't survive. We know that. Anything and everything we say and or think and or do is controlled by the brain. How is drinking not mental? Please, provide me with something to say it's not.

Ok, I'm sorry - but I can't take this anymore. Stop with the sob stories. It's not that I don't care, but this is a CRITICAL THINKING thread. Applying your situation is useless because it's a one-sided thing that will lead to a "he said-she said, you're lying or full of shit, this isn't possible" kind of situation.

As to what you've said: a person drinking because he knew he loved the physical alcohol and not the high itself, completely invalidates any sort of argument you have. They're doing it because they like it, not because they can't control it. This situation pretty much leads to what I said earlier - drinking to cover any sort of depression or other issues that are stuck in your lives. You don't use your brain to drink, you use your hand, and your mouth. You brain is what TELLS you to do it, but that's not what physically does it. This, is where the line of addiction and disease is drawn.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:16 pm

Frankie wrote:
You guys really aren't getting what I'm saying. It's kind of frustrating.

Okay, so, alcoholism is an addiction rather than a disease. Okay, I agree with it being an addiction. That is by far one fact. Lets look at two very important factors with diseases:

1. Chronic
2. Progressive

Diabetes, Cancer, Leukemia, etc. They all have those two very important factors. Doctors say very importantly that if something is chronic and progressive it is a disease. Those are just two factors. Alcoholism has those two as well... So we'll just write it off as it isn't a disease because we just relate it to be an addiction or what not? The fact of the matter is that no matter what WE say, none of us are alcoholics. Yes we see it as an outside view, but what about those that are? What about those people who want to stop but can't? And you can say "oh get over it you can," when in reality its just not that easy.

They CAN stop you can argue all you want that they can't but it's not true. There are programs they can go to, medication they can take so on and so forth people just don't really want to do it or deal with it properly. They have absorbed themselves into this world of substance abuse and try to make it out like it's impossible. It's not impossible there have been alcoholics that have been that way for 20, 30, 40 yrs etc. and have managed to stop.

Quote :

Being a smoker, I can't quit. I have tried. It doesn't work out for me. Being a drug addict for over 10 years didn't help either. I couldn't quit. Want to know how I quit drugs? Rehab. Treatments. Walking around like a zombie for over a year. That's how I quit being a full fledged drug addict. 17/18 years old I had to go to rehab on and off. It was a mental disease I had that was shutting my body down because I was going through withdrawal.

You can quit smoking you're mentally telling yourself you can't but the fact of the matter is you can. Suck it up and deal with the withdrawal it sucks yea but you gotta go through it to kick it. If you want to sit here and claim that you were a drug addict for over 10 years and managed to stop then you can surely quit smoking too. Withdrawal is not a mental disease it's the addiction to it.

Quote :

Again, it is opinionated. I don't see what you guys don't get? You can create a poll and everyone on there can click no or yes, it isn't gonna matter to me. I've already asked about five other people who agree with me, including my father who IS an alcoholic and a friend I've known for over 20 years who isn't, along with more... Still, it doesn't matter.

The theory of alcoholism has been going on since the late eighteenth century. Were not going to cover any new ground here discussing what you feel or what I feel about it. It has not been OFFICIALLY stated it is or isn't a disease. If you guys, just as I am, are so hell bent on it being a disease or not, discussing it here doesn't make a difference. What matters is what scientists and doctors conclude over hundreds of years or research. Nothing we say now is any different than those who said the same thing over the many many years.

So, I will say this, I won't fight about it any more, I won't specify why I believe it to be a disease or what not. I will only say it is my god given right to have my opinion, and it is what it is.

Tell those 5 people to come in here an state their opinion too then. Yes of course an alcoholic is going to say it's a disease because they don't want to own up to their mistakes. It's a lot easier to blame something else then to blame yourself also it helps you in how you feel you are looked at in other peoples eyes. If people look at you as if you're a fuckup it's going to make you feel like shit where as if people look at you as if you have a disease they feel bad for you.

And yes you do have a right to you opinion just as every one of us here do as well. If you don't want people to question your opinion and present theirs to you don't post your opinion in a public place where people can respond.




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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:19 pm

Hey I posted my opinion back when. It didn't have to blow up like this haha.

No need for " im sick of this or im sick of hearing that. Bullshit Smile

But lorika said it all Addiction is a disease. Period.

I'm done with this thread now. You guys can have your majority on saying its not a disease and what not. Nothing you say will change my mind and nothing i say will change yours. End of story.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:20 pm

Okay if addiction is a disease then alcoholism is a symptom period. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:21 pm

Frankie wrote:
Hey I posted my opinion back when. It didn't have to blow up like this haha.

No need for " im sick of this or im sick of hearing that. Bullshit Smile

But lorika said it all Addiction is a disease. Period.

Because you have to rely on someone else's opinion to believe that - and not come up with any concrete facts. The articles were alright, they offered room for argument; the last few posts were nothing but "my family this" and "i'm proof of that".

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:22 pm

Aj, I gave my opinions and evidence. If you still want to persist this topic, you know my number. For now, I am done discussing this. There is too much evidence to say I'm right, and too much to say you're right. Enough. kthnx
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:24 pm

Frankie wrote:
Hey I posted my opinion back when. It didn't have to blow up like this haha.

No need for " im sick of this or im sick of hearing that. Bullshit Smile

But lorika said it all Addiction is a disease. Period.

I'm done with this thread now. You guys can have your majority on saying its not a disease and what not. Nothing you say will change my mind and nothing i say will change yours. End of story.

You're the reason why it blew up, dont try to be all innocent and act like none of this was on you. Everyone posted their opinion and you just took it to the point where it went from being about opinions to being about why you are right that it is a disease.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:29 pm

We've disproved EVERYTHING you've said. Provide information that isn't full of theories.

I find it funny how you use Lorika as a anchor for your idea when Lorika actually leaves room for the same argument that I've been using:

Quote :
Neurological "impairment" is physiological. Addictions range a lot further than alcoholism and dread drugs, especially in our era of mass-produced convenience: Withdrawal symptoms have been observed and documented in video game-addicted children out in summer camps, for example. One could of course argue that these symptoms are more of an epiphenomenon: that they are anxious responses... but I think it's intuitively obvious that the truth is a mix of these two phenomena: video games require such concentration that they can be used as an outlet away from reality, the brains of these people adjust to suit said outlet, and it takes some time for them to neurologically adapt to their environment. Don't addictions to substances operate almost identically?

I agree with everything that Lorika said, but there's still one issue. People employ alcohol as a hideaway, and the continual use of it is what gives you the neurological impairment (as well as other bodily harm). However, there's still a control factor in all of this; I agree with the alternative point that Lorika argues, you are still willingly applying yourself to use said substance to escape reality.

Frankie wrote:
Aj, I gave my opinions and evidence. If you still want to persist this topic, you know my number. For now, I am done discussing this. There is too much evidence to say I'm right, and too much to say you're right. Enough. kthnx

Are you kidding me? You're getting that upset when we're having an actual debate - you shouldn't be having such a problem with discussing something like this because it's going to get heated. If you can't take the heat, get out of the flame pit; I'm not going to call you over a DEBATE on the forums - if you want to stop there, fine by us; we presented our side with facts.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:35 pm

k


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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:36 pm

ITT : We call poor control and abuse "deceases"

Being fat because you eat too much food is also genetic and a decease.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:40 pm

tomatoshadow wrote:
Being fat because you eat too much food is also genetic and a decease.


Being fat actually can be considered genetic, especially if you're "big-boned" or even elephantitis. But being fat is *partially* genetic.

I say this because I couldn't tell if you were sarcastic or not ;.;
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:49 pm

I'm pretty sure it was intended as sarcasm - in terms of the action of eating a lot on your own being of your own choice (i.e. siding with addiction).

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 5:56 pm

Frankie wrote:
Dude I'm not upset. I personally don't care about that of which you have said. I have my fucking opinion!!! lolol what the fuck don't you get?

The simplistic thing is that the major factors of a disease or it being chronic and progressive!! that right there proves fucking alcoholism and DONT tell me its wrong. cause i know too many people that are at risk of dying of alcohol and had friends drink WAY too much and wind up in the hospital lol

And trust me I'm not using lorika as an anchor. I agreed with their post on addiction is a disease that is true. Can't complain. But my theory is alcoholism is a disease. You can't disprove me of anything? If it was this easy whty haven't you guys went to the board of health or some doctors or scientists and given them this proof you say you gave me? Then you guys would be rich am i right? yeah, the founding discoverers of why alcoholism is not a disease. They have said everything that has already been said!!! give em a round of applause ladies and gentleman lol

The major points ive made you have thrown out the window. It is a lost cause debating with you aj lol it really is you wont see my points and i wont see yours because were both too stuck in our ways lol we both beleive what we want to believe so on and so forth. whats so hard to understand? LOL


and trust me, over something this petty, it's not worth being "upset" over. I clearly said you can call me to further "educate" me as to why this is still persisting. that is all.

You guys can have your debate seeing as the majority believe it is not. I will do my research as I hope you will too. I will come back with more proof as to why it is a disease at some point later on. I promise that. But for now, the evidence i have proven the major one you have NOT disproved which is the two leading factors of a debate. When you can disprove that then maybe I'll think different.

You say you aren't upset yet the cursing and the !!!'s say otherwise. The part I have bolded is now you just being antagonistic or really just a straight up dick. That I wont tolerate, argue your opinions, present your facts but don't make comments like that to other people. Come back with your "proof" whatever most shit on the internet is incorrect in one way or another or is just OPINION or THEORY. You say over and over again what's so hard to understand, why is it so hard to believe it's a disease well why is it so hard for you to understand our point of view then? Every life experience you have brought up to prove your point has just shown that alcoholism is caused by an underlying disease nothing more it doesn't prove that alcoholism in itself is a disease.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:04 pm


its not a 'disease of the mind' its an escape. people drink to try and get rid of their problems and nothing else. then eventually you need more and more to get the facade of actually getting rid of them. an addiction is not a disease NOR EVER WILL BE. stop being to thick headed you to and get over the fact that it most definitely is an addiction and not a disease.

IT GETS PROGRESSIVELY WORSE WHILE YOU DO IT

stop drinking and it wont. addiction.

case.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:06 pm


I voted no. Someone else voted yes


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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:07 pm

Okay I'm going to say this one time and one time only. If people keep targeting people with things like calling an opinion stupid or some other antagonistic remark I will start banning. State your point quote certain points of peoples posts and question them or put your opinion but I'm not going to tolerate name calling or anything of the sort there's no reason for it.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:08 pm

Thank you +1
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:10 pm

Now i want to say this. I understand where Aj and Kayla are coming from. I can't deny there intense knowledge in putting forth opposite opinions and facts. You guys are good, no doubt. But, with everything that I have experienced and seen, my opinion stays with me. I clearly see why Alcoholism would NOT be a disease, but again, in my own stubborn mind, I see why it SHOULD be. I'll leave it at that guys, alright? Later.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:17 pm

@kayla doesnt really matter when the opposing side has 2 people on it... we know who is being targeted.

and i think i deserve some credit in critical thinking threads because i am usually the 'loner' on the other end of the spectrum


whoops forgot my point in the thread.
when you are sick(have a disease in your body) isn't it true that your white blood cell count goes up? I dont think ingesting alcohol does that...
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:22 pm

When I say targeting I mean like calling someones opinions stupid or whatever. Obviously you are debating your points against certain peoples opinions but that's different.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:23 pm

@kmay: Most diseases cause abnormalities in them (some more severe than others); some kill off white cells to stop your body from defending properly, others increase the contents to unmanageable levels.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:28 pm

either way alcohol doesnt affect them
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:30 pm

Kellen, you are targeting when you say "two people". Pointing this out is targeting.

In all reality, you obviously have not read all of this thread. I changed my opinion. Therefore, you cannot try and pinpoint people.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:41 pm

ok read the thread. and sara... really couldnt tell your opinion until you were like 'plan_B idk who ur calling a two little pricks i changed my opinion' so yea

and an addiction over time is a disease is the ONLY thing i got out of this thread. Still doesnt make any sense.

lets say i snort ecstacy everyday for 2 months. i cant quit i need it everyday sometimes twice. its only an addiction leave it alone. you arent going to give me pills to quit. YOU'RE GOING TO SEND ME TO REHAB. /not a disease
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:46 pm

kmay wrote:
ok read the thread. and sara... really couldnt tell your opinion until you were like 'plan_B idk who ur calling a two little pricks i changed my opinion' so yea

and an addiction over time is a disease is the ONLY thing i got out of this thread. Still doesnt make any sense.

lets say i snort ecstacy everyday for 2 months. i cant quit i need it everyday sometimes twice. its only an addiction leave it alone. you arent going to give me pills to quit. YOU'RE GOING TO SEND ME TO REHAB. /not a disease

That can't be the only thing you got out of this thread :/ if so then I didn't do a good job on debating my point. But here this basically sums it up on my end and way of thinking about it.

the way i see it its basically a cause and effect situation. a person who is depressed may turn to it because it helps them cope with thier depression. Now depression is a mental disorder or illness so that's the cause of the alcoholism then in turn the continued substance abuse will result in more diseases such as kindney liver etc.. other situations a person may start drinking and just enjoy it they build up a tolerance so they drink more and more to achive that "high" but in essence the addiction is to the high itself not the alcohol a lot of people that start with alcohol end up drug addicts some don't and the effects of that addiction is diseases that come from the substance abuse. But I mean if you really think about it it's really hard to call alcoholism itself the disease because in every instance there is something leading to it. If there were something in the brain that wasn't explained by some other mental illness or addiction then yes it could be but there's nothing to prove that there's just a trigger that makes someone an alcoholic that is not associated with some other illness.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:48 pm

White blood cells are dispatched to recycle molecular abnormalities. It's one of the body's defensive responses against what could be disease (could be a lot of other things)...

But yeah, I'll say it again:
alcoholism is the addiction to alcohol

Alcoholism is not the action of drinking alcohol. Alcoholism is neither the way alcohol impairs your mind, nor the means through which we decide to drink it.
alcoholism = addiction to alcohol
It's not the decision-making process, either. Addiction is the body's acclimation to a particular stimuli, which in this case is alcohol. It's the excessive desire to drink that disgusting substance. o_o;
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 6:55 pm

Lorika wrote:
White blood cells are dispatched to recycle molecular abnormalities. It's one of the body's defensive responses against what could be disease (could be a lot of other things)...

But yeah, I'll say it again:
alcoholism is the addiction to alcohol

Alcoholism is not the action of drinking alcohol. Alcoholism is neither the way alcohol impairs your mind, nor the means through which we decide to drink it.
alcoholism = addiction to alcohol
It's not the decision-making process, either. Addiction is the body's acclimation to a particular stimuli, which in this case is alcohol. It's the excessive desire to drink that disgusting substance. o_o;

But that's just it "excessive desire" There's nothing in alcohol that makes you addicted to it it's just the high feeling. Unlike smoking where there's a receptor in the brain that nicotine sticks to which is what causes the addiction and the terrible withdrawal if you don't feed the addiction. Where as in alcohol there's no addicting property other than the feeling you get drinking it which with your own will power you can overcome.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 7:13 pm

Nicotine affects the structure of the brain, and so does anything we could come to depend on to a degree where that reliance could be clinically labeled as an addiction. The brain is highly adaptive... It's an organ that was evolutionarily selected specifically for overcoming new hurdles; obstacles that organisms are otherwise not biologically equipped to handle.

I think alcoholism itself is an adaptation, to a new set of circumstances: intoxication of the brain for the relief of stress. The converse also applies: overcoming alcoholism requires forceful adaptation.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 7:20 pm

Halogen- wrote:
I'm pretty sure it was intended as sarcasm - in terms of the action of eating a lot on your own being of your own choice (i.e. siding with addiction).

Confirmed.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 8:06 pm

Lorika wrote:
Nicotine affects the structure of the brain, and so does anything we could come to depend on to a degree where that reliance could be clinically labeled as an addiction. The brain is highly adaptive... It's an organ that was evolutionarily selected specifically for overcoming new hurdles; obstacles that organisms are otherwise not biologically equipped to handle.

I think alcoholism itself is an adaptation, to a new set of circumstances: intoxication of the brain for the relief of stress. The converse also applies: overcoming alcoholism requires forceful adaptation.

Quote :

Difficulty walking, blurred vision, slurred speech, slowed reaction times, impaired memory: Clearly, alcohol affects the brain. Some of these impairments are detectable after only one or two drinks and quickly resolve when drinking stops. On the other hand, a person who drinks heavily over a long period of time may have brain deficits that persist well after he or she achieves sobriety.


Yes alcohol can cause brain deficits but that has nothing to do with addiction it just has to do with damaging your brain by abusing the substance.

Quote :

substance dependence is defined as:

"When an individual persists in use of alcohol or other drugs despite problems related to use of the substance, substance dependence may be diagnosed. Compulsive and repetitive use may result in tolerance to the effect of the drug and withdrawal symptoms when use is reduced or stopped."



Criteria for Substance Dependence


A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:

(1) tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
(a) a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve Intoxication or desired effect
(b) markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance

(2) Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
(a) the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from the specific substances)
(b) the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms

(3) the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended

(4) there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use

(5) a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g., visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g., chain-smoking), or recover from its effects

(6) important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use

(7) the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g.,continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)


Alcoholism is a substance dependence. People depend on it to escape their problems whatever.

I'm sorry but I can not see a disease in alcoholism. Things affecting the brain from birth, depression, other mental illnesses, then there's cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. these are all things that can not be controlled you can try to prevent these diseases but sometimes they just happen. Where as alcoholism is caused by you picking up the bottle and drinking. You have full control over that. People know the risks and people know if they are at higher risk for becoming an alcoholic yet of their own free will they pick up that bottle. You don't just have a few drinks and become an alcoholic it doesn't work that way. If that were the case pretty much all the world would be. Hell some countries it's normal for people to be drunk almost all the time but that's not considered abnormal there or "alcoholism" it's just a normal way of life for them.


My definition of alcoholism - an escape for people who can not handle reality. They can not deal with their problems in a healthy manner to they turn to substance use to impair their mind.

Eh I'm just gonna stop there's a million things I could say to this subject but it's just not worth it anymore like I said in a post above it's a cause and effect situation

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Lorika

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Join date : 2010-06-01
Age : 28
Location : Vancouver, BC

PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 27th 2010, 8:43 pm

Lorika wrote:
Nicotine affects the structure of the brain, and so does anything we could come to depend on to a degree where that reliance could be clinically labeled as an addiction. The brain is highly adaptive... It's an organ that was evolutionarily selected specifically for overcoming new hurdles; obstacles that organisms are otherwise not biologically equipped to handle.

I think alcoholism itself is an adaptation, to a new set of circumstances: intoxication of the brain for the relief of stress. The converse also applies: overcoming alcoholism requires forceful adaptation.
Saphira wrote:
"On the other hand, a person who drinks heavily over a long period of time may have brain deficits that persist well after he or she achieves sobriety."
Yes alcohol can cause brain deficits but that has nothing to do with addiction it just has to do with damaging your brain by abusing the substance.
Yeah, I'll just add that people do indeed develop neurological deficits when abusing a substance, not only because of the toxicity of the substance, but because, as people become addicted and continue to use it for relief, their brains structurally change to accommodate that difference in circumstance (which they would perceive as 'easier'). In that way, damage is not only a consequence of the substance (that type of damage is permanent), but also of the dependency (adapted lack of compatibility with the normal environment), which affects the person's ability to make the necessary conscious decision to stop.
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kmay

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PostSubject: Re: Is Alcoholism a disease?   August 28th 2010, 2:25 pm

lol kayla. i got your point. i was talking about the opposing view... they have nothing going for them.

and to frankie
alcoholism is not a disease of the effects of it can seem like a disease to a family being torn apart by it.
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